Law School Lies

Mo Government! Interview call and setup for about 12 hours from now. Sounds interesting.

Update: I am going to hold off on posting this interview. It went exceedingly well and I was told I was to be referred up the chain as ‘the’ candidate and get rubber stamped by the powers that be. I guess we shall see if that holds true.

Update 2: Fuck them.

So I submitted a resume to an atrocious state career site. Basically, think of the most user unfriendly system (no, not OSCAR, but damn close) that you can absolutely feel was made by the lowest bidder who was building the website while concurrently reading about how to build websites from a ‘For Dummies’ book. I had submitted probably 10 resumes to previous postings for the exact same job posted in multiple locations and never heard anything back… imagine my surprise when I got a call back and a request for an interview for the very next day.

So I drive out to the office. And by drive, I nearly mean a road trip, as the primary office was 100 miles away from me. I timed it, and the drive wasn’t that bad; less than an hour and a half because there was absolutely no traffic. I pull into the small town the office is based out of and had a slightly foreboding feeling. The town looked like the last dollar had dried up and blown away about 30 years ago. It had all the signs of following cities such as Gary, Indiana and Detroit into industrial decline; lots of boarded up buildings and almost nothing over 3 stories. At least Gary and Detroit had at one point been real cities… this place… really probably hadn’t.

Thankfully, the office was quite literally right off the highway. So I pull into a squat one story building and head inside. I briefly speak to the receptionist and I’m told to wait. The waiting room itself was distilled depression. Apparently there was no budget for cleaning with the state, as there was dirt everywhere and large spider webs that had long ago collected enough dust on them to basically be considered fabric. The waiting room itself could really only accommodate about 6 people… and it had 3 others sitting in it that looked (and acted) like rejects from a Jerry Springer casting call (woo state work).

So I’m finally called back for the interview. I walk back into a hallway with industrial carpeting so worn it is has a slight blackish color to it, and its ever so slightly sticky, which makes me believe that it had literally been worn down to the glue backing. Swanky. I sit down in a room across for one guy who informs me one of the 3 people who are interviewing me is running late and hasn’t arrived yet, so we start a bit of small talk. The managing attorney wanders in and we continue talking a bit half and half about random topics and more interviewy type questions. Eventually, the regional attorney walks in wearing a pair of jeans and a loose shirt. (casual? or too casual?) I am told (somewhat thankfully) that I’ll probably almost never be in the horribly depressing office, because I will be going to courthouses across multiple counties. The conversation continues and eventually they pull out a list of questions specific to the position.

The questions were really quite varied. And not only varied across the spectrum of my background and credentials, but they quizzed me on specifics of law and what decisions I would make based upon hypothetical situations. Normally, I would call this out as bullshit, because it was. This was for an entry level position, and they were asking questions that required quite a bit of nuanced knowledge of the field. I point it out, but at the same time, this was one of my sub-specialties and I was hitting a grand slam on their questions. They asked a few which I would normally even describe as trick questions; if you had this happen would you A or B, and the real answer was neither, you would do C followed by D.

At one point I was asked if I voted for Obama, I laughed and made a joke about the Hatch Act (yeah, I know a hard joke to make) but everyone laughed and they moved on. Yeah, it was pretty damn illegal to bring it up and the position was not political in any way shape or form.

So I was batting 1000 with the interview questions. The interview itself went on for 2 1/2 hours. It was long… I don’t think it was intended to be even half that, but the conversation was great and they were enjoying it too. It finally wound down and I got to ask the standard questions “when will you make a decision… yada yada” They told me they were deciding that day. The supervising attorney told me (in front of the other 2 interviewers) you have my vote as the candidate. They were all very friendly and were telling me that the background check would go through in about a month or less and the state office would call and offer over the phone. They told me that usually the candidate they select is hired and the process is merely a rubber stamping from the head office that wends its way through a few levels of the office before offering the hire. They were all but laying out what my schedule would be with them. I was told in as many words “you are exactly what this office needs” and “you’re the name we are selecting”.

So I was walking on air. It was a good interview. Now I just had to wait. And wait. And eventually begin to wonder why I hadn’t heard anything. And I finally got a letter telling me they went with someone else.

I sent the managing attorney my standard professional “WTF” email, asking for advice on what I can improve upon with my resume or interview. I really hope they respond, because I do actually want to know what the hell happened considering I was told I was the candidate point blank.

 

So I got a call from an AM 100 firm asking for a phone screen interview. A few days later I get another call asking me to show up at their office for an interview “because their needs have changed”. I’m still not sure what that means, but I’m always game to show up for interviews – plus a Big Law office interview should be interesting if nothing else. I’m then told I’m going to be video conferencing with a couple attorneys in another state.

I sorta thought that meant that there would be someone in person to also speak with, but that turned out not to be the case here. Anyway, I’m getting a bit ahead of myself. I show up at the building and park in possibly the most expensive parking garage in this city (thankfully unlike previous ‘of course we will validate parking‘ interviews, this office actually did validate my parking). I then take a series of elevators to the top floor.

— Sidenote… I recall in other cities taking a single elevator up 100 floors or more, usually on an express elevator, but it was a single elevator. The city I am in now seems to have some sort of requirement that elevators can only go up 50 floors, and then you have to get out and go to a different bank of elevators to continue up any farther. Anyone know why this is? It just seems strange to me.

Anyway, saying it was the top floor wasn’t quite right. For this office, you go to the top floor, then get out of the elevator and walk up another flight to the their office. It almost seemed like they looked at the Realtor and said ‘we want the top floor’ were then told it was occupied, and then asked ‘What if we built something above that…”. That being said, it was beautiful. The decor dripped money, moreso than any other office I have been in. While I was waiting, someone came in whose sole job was to monitor and maintain the wood furniture and replace it if it started to look worn. I am quite confident that the fee charged by the decorator of this office cost more than most law firms spend on filling their office with actual furniture.

After waiting in an empty lobby for a few minutes, someone finally walked by. And actually got halfway down a side hallway before stopping and turning back to ask if anyone had helped me yet. It was a weird disconnect that apparently there are so few people who come into their fabulously decorated lobby, that someone waiting in it will be initially overlooked.

So after a few more minutes, I’m led back to a conference room with a large TV displaying the inside of a much less impressive conference room 1000 miles away, and I’m left there alone staring into another empty conference room. The existential implications were profound.

Finally the other attorney wandered into the frame and started talking with me and conducting the interview. I will say first that this was the most sane interview I’ve had in a very, very long time. The only weird part was that technically for this job, the direct supervisors were the people I was talking to 1000 miles away. I would likely almost never see them in person, but it also explained why I was sitting in an empty room talking to a TV. It also made me wonder why I couldn’t have done this interview over Skype from my apartment.

The whole situation gave a somewhat impersonal feel, but also showed that this was a very technically adept firm. The HR admin in one office setup an interview with several other attorneys across multiple states and it all went off incredibly smoothly. The only irritation was a slight delay of probably 1-2 seconds on the video-link which made me almost want to announce ‘over’ at the end of each of my answers, like some sort of ham radio.

But dear lord… if I was willing to kill to get the job from the prior interview, I can’t even tell you what I would do for these people. Probably something the Hague would want to talk with me about; but I think it might be worth it.

 

 

I think there must be one of those worthless business books written by a self-proclaimed guru with no credentials, that states the correct way to conduct an interview is to first have a sane interview with the candidate; and then send in the most obnoxious and deranged personality you can find for the second interview. I can not fathom any other explanation for why it seems to happen over and over again.

I went two rounds of interviews with a foreclosure firm recently. The first interview went quite well. I met with the named partner and the office manager. I got along quite well with the named partner, and based upon previous interviews, I thought that this was in the bag by scoring points with the big name of the office. Oh how wrong I could be. This particular firm was setup slightly differently, and operated on an almost franchise style of management. The firm had what amounted to a ‘mostly silent partner’ who rarely showed up and I would apparently have no contact with whatsoever. Except apparently for the interview. So, one of the silent partners showed up and was anything but. This is in contradistinction to the named partner who this time sat completely silent and smiling to my right through the whole second interview. Apparently I had misjudged where the power resided in this firm.

The silent partner started it off and said “I have three questions for you.” He asked for a specific citation to a state statute, the second question was a second point cite to a rule. I quickly stated ‘I don’t know’ to both questions, because honestly, that’s not something you should know off the top of your head for an interview for an entry level position which was offering to pay less than many paralegal salaries. (see the insane interview for reference).  He then proceeded to calmly step over the line of professionalism and well into the territory of douchbaggery and said “well, if you don’t know that, then what good are you to this office?”

(sidebar… so this means that if he had 3 questions already set, 2 of which he knew no interviewee could answer, he had his 1 phrased insult already chambered? Because he started off by saying, “I have 3 questions…” and I honestly don’t think I got a different version than anyone else, so the standard interview with this guy was to be insulted?)

There was a short beat wherein I had to process the lobbed insult which seemed a bit uncharacteristic in an interview, but at this point nothing much phases me; I’ve come to expect this abuse and like a Stockholm syndrome sufferer… I almost miss it when it’s not there. So relatively quickly my tenor shifts into a slightly more dick-ish stance and I state “I’m sorry, I was told that this position would include training. Was I misinformed?”

This answer actually caught him off guard, and he shifted in his seat a bit and stated that it would. So I continued on and told him I was bringing my multiple bars which were gotten via testing. My several advanced certifications, and my not insubstantial intelligence which I do believe was shown on my resume via several points. I finished my short (even keeled tirade?) statement by dismissively waving my hand and saying, “I am quite confident that I can pick up this relatively quickly.”

As with anybody who has just been told they said something stupid, the silent partner decided to double down on the dumb.  And he started listing off Probate, foreclosure, bankruptcy and asking if I had filed any of those cases before. Once he got to the third one I interrupted and said “Look, I am not hiding anything from my resume. If it’s not on there, I haven’t done it.” I proceeded to explain my actual litigation background in more depth. Which didn’t really sink in because he then proceeded to list off two other sub-specialties before stopping.

The interview came to a rather stilted end wherein the grinning named partner finally asked if I had any other questions before ending the interview. The interview itself only lasted about 15 minutes; not a horribly good sign. I walked back out, and the highlight of the experience was walking down to my car talking with another applicant for the job. He had a slightly similar background as me interestingly but he had just come out of his first interview with the foreclosure firm. I gave him the ‘3 questions’ on the off chance he was asked back and we chatted for a few minutes. He had previously worked at the County office referenced in Interview 18. I asked what his impression of the office was, his response was “It’s a meatgrinder… you dodged a bullet by not getting an offer there.” He said a few other choice remarks about the office as well as the interviewer I had spoken with, enough to seemingly legitimize his first statement, and that was the end of this latest interview.

I had been told they would get back to me in about 3 days. It’s been over a week. I’m not holding my breath for this one.

 

In my continuing quest, I’ve sent out quite a few emails and resumes. They all have something in common however… they all state that I am looking for a job. Usually the attached resume and cover letter is a dead giveaway, but you have to make sure to bluntly state it for the more dense recipients. One of these cold resume emails is what brought me back to the hallowed halls of higher education.

I sent out a job seeking email to the tech capitalization office of a university, and I got a reply telling me to come in for “a meeting to discuss what I was looking for.” Now, most people would pretty readily recognize what I was looking for from the email and resume, vis a vis — a job, at the most basic level. For my part, I assumed I was headed into an interview, because when you send an email saying ‘I am looking for a job’ and someone else replies ‘Come over here so we can talk about that,’ one might naturally assume the ensuing conversation would be about a job.

Well, you would be wrong. At least so far as this meeting was concerned. I show up at a very well regarded university and park in the paid lot I was directed to by the secretary who was directed to schedule the interview. The grounds are quite lovely and I briefly enjoy the view before heading to the appointed office. The office is pretty much what you would expect from a university admin office, industrial carpeting, various functionaries and work study kids sitting in cubicles rather than a reception area; the standard attempt to use all the available space. Initially I am told to wait in the single folding chair sitting forlornly in a corner but instead I am quickly ushered into the office of the director.

I will start out by saying… they were an incredibly nice person. And I will follow it up by saying, they had no idea why they were meeting with me. Which is doubly odd since they were the one to directly setup the interview with me. We hit it off in the small-talk arena for awhile and talked about a few common points between us and gossiped about the academic world. Then they told me there was no job there. (thud). But there might be at some indeterminate point in the future, or maybe at the GC’s office, or somewhere. Then, to really drive the point home that they have no clue what attorneys do, they mentioned that they have some internships in the summer there. (not legal mind you… just business) Uh huh. They also seemed surprised to find out I was a patent attorney, which again seemed odd to me since it was on line 3 of my resume. and in the email. and in the cover letter. But honestly, the mention (offer?) of an unpaid internship usually gotten by undergrads in business majors really was the high point of the ‘interview’.

I’ve become an expert at disguising my disappointment, and to put it honestly, I’ve come to expect this type of thing. I think the real shocker will be when I get an interview for a job that actually exists. So we continued talking about whatever they wanted to talk about… for about 45 minutes more. I guess if they had been forthright and stated this would be more a networking meeting rather than about a job, I might not be posting it here. I’ve had lots of networking meetings at this point, but both sides are aware going into it that there isn’t a job offer in the balance.

So basically I got all dressed up to go gossip with someone in higher education. The meeting finally wound down, and I wandered back out of the office. As I left, I asked for the parking validation that had been promised in the email setting up the interview. The secretary looked at me and said “damn.. the person who does those things left for the day already.” I stood there for merely a moment and sighed, and said don’t worry about it.

Par for the course.

 

So a cold spam resume sent to an Oil and Gas boutique resulted in an email telling me to show up for an interview. I arrive at a nice glass building and park in the connected garage. As a random side note, the garage had rather ridiculous infestation of spiders along the I-beams of the ceiling making me shirk away from every surface and slouch slightly with a vigilant eye upwards. But, inside the building it was quite lovely, and there was a pretty veranda with tables and chairs overlooking a little brook running behind the building that had a whole bunch of turtles in it!

Anyway, back on topic… I get to the office and it was a nice lobby, although some rather cheap flooring, but it was quite large. I’m told to wait and after about 10 minutes one of the soon-to-be interviewers comes out and asks if I brought a copy of my resume with me because apparently they can’t find where they put it. (apparently not a tech savvy office if they can’t search thru email…) So I hand them a copy and I’m ushered into the named partners office. Imagine a living room from 1975 done up with wood paneling and a lot of leather.

The interviewers for this 20+ attorney firm consist of the named partner, and 2 associates who are very likely younger than I am. We start talking about O&G in general and what my interest is in it, I answer I am interested in general business law and O&G is a subset I’d be interested in pursuing considering.. well its Texas (lots of O&G firms). Now, just to clarify, I come from a place where there basically was no oil or gas activity at all, although rather recently there is a great deal. There were no classes in law school because it was the wrong part of the country to have such things. So most of my answers to the O&G info are based on studying for the Texas bar exam.

This shouldn’t be a huge surprise, because this firm had people who had multiple bars in places all over the country, and well, its pretty obvious from my resume… which they must have read before I got here… right? So the general Q&A goes on for awhile and finally I ask (because if you recall… this was a cold resume with no job posting) “what are you looking for, for this position?”

The named partner speaks up and says “7-10 years experience doing title examination opinions in all the places you have bar licenses in.” Silence descends upon the room. WTF. He (theoretically) had looked at a copy of my resume which had zero O&G on it, and pretty close to zero title work on it, and oh let’s not forget I only graduated 4 years ago… so… the whole experience part was a bit of a wash. How was I supposed to respond to that? So after a few seconds of silence I finally just answered “Well, at least I have the bar licenses part.”

The interviewers seem to start winding down and I get asked the great “do you have any questions for us?” The firm had listed on their website that in addition to O&G they also did IP – specifically copyright, trademark, patents, and trade secret work; oh yeah, and Wills, trusts, estate planning, and probate. So, thinking I could leverage my other skills in place of the apparent absence of O&G work I speak up. “I saw on your website that you do IP work…” that was all I got out.

The named partner (possibly a bit too emphatically) spoke up “That’s a LIE.” Once again… silence in the room. Was he saying I was lying? Or the website? I was stuck just sort of staring – waiting for more, and finally he decided to extrapolate. “We don’t do any of that, I think in the past 20 years we’ve done it twice for a client.” So, no… I can’t leverage any other specialties. Apparently the person who made the website never actually consulted with the named partner.The firm ONLY did one thing. O&G title opinions. The other dozen ‘practice areas’ listed were space fillers and they didn’t actually do any of them. (ethics of legal advertising aside, how the hell is someone from outside the firm supposed to know that from looking at their crappy website?)

Suddenly it fell into place. The named partner was computer illiterate. He didn’t look at my resume because it was a PDF attachment… he didn’t download it or open it. He read the brief introductory blurb of my email and made a snap determination on the 3-5 sentences therein. He had no input on his website or interest therein… yeah… I suddenly realized that the first time anyone in that room had seen my resume was as I was sitting down for the interview. There was literally no chance of me getting this job because Mr. Techno-illiterate partner had no idea what my background was because he didn’t read my resume or cover letter, he just saw from the email that I had bar licenses in the right states and he was hoping I had the background he was looking for.

So the interview basically hit a wall and wound down pretty quickly thereafter. I tried to make some small talk surrounding a specific hobby listed all over his bio, but it went nowhere fast. The only bright spot was when I was asked how soon I could start if they were interested. I checked my watch, looked up and said “is now too soon?”

I was ushered back out of the office and felt vaguely confused by the whole ordeal. It was a friendly enough interview minus the whole “7-10 years of experience in a field I don’t have”. Maybe they were looking to train someone…

Yeah.. the answer was no. The email showed up an hour later. I contacted one of the interviewers with the standard “thank you, can you give me some feedback” notes. They basically said I needed to have shown more interest in the field by having joined about a half dozen different professional organizations in O&G to show commitment to the field. (mind you a field I have been incapable of practicing based on geography until the last 30 days). So, pay a bunch of membership fees to organizations that were more local than national, for a sub-specialty I couldn’t possibly have been connected with up until now.

Super. Great advice. I literally couldn’t be more happy with your help. Next time open the damned resume before you setup an interview.

The first of the networking garnered interviews!

I was turned onto a medium sized commercial litigation firm by one of the line of networking contacts I’ve talked to over the past few weeks, and I got a call back. Well, actually I got an email, a very ambiguous email saying something to the effect of ‘we should talk.’

It started out I was meeting the attorney for breakfast. Personally I thought that was an odd choice but I don’t cast aspersions regarding food choice when there is a possibility of actual work. Breakfast at a location near me, turned into lunch, turned into a 15 minute meeting at their office. Pinning the attorney down with an actual time was ridiculous, the final email said “just show up anytime after 2:30”. Nothing in the emails ever actually said ‘interview’ so I hoped for the best and headed to their office at the ambiguously appointed time.

I parked by the address and headed over to the tallest skyscraper for miles in any direction. I walked into the lobby and checked the address, top floor. Swanky. I got to their office, and the first thought through my mind was “I would legitimately murder someone to work here.”

It turns out it was a job interview, but a very abbreviated one. The partner had been tasked with finding a few people to add to the firm without any real guidance by the managing partner; And they were headed out on a longer vacation at the end of the day, so the interview was going to have to be a fast one because of all the last minute work they needed to get done. I was effectively the first person they were interviewing. The job sounded amazing. Without going into many specifics, the job entailed almost everything I would want to do in law, and had the added benefit of being told I would likely be required to fly to London on a regular basis (the horror).

Then, of course, because it is me… the ‘but’ was finally stated. It turns out they have no timetable for hiring. The partner told me point blank, they may be looking to hire next week (unlikely) or in 9 months or more. They just didn’t know. I suppose it was nice that they were honest with me. But dear god, I was just dangled the perfect job in front of me wherein they said they were very interested in me but have no idea when they may decide to actually hire.

But truly… I would legitimately kill someone at this point for that job.

Applied to a Junior Associate position at a nice mid-sized civil trial firm of about 30-ish attorneys. I got a call back and setup an interview. Received an email relaying the instructions to get to the office and various particulars relating to who I would be talking to etc.

Re-reading the email it never specifically mentioned what the job position I was actually interviewing for. I apparently assumed it was for the position I applied to (weird, right?). I roll into the firm’s office and the admin who setup the interview was out sick. Then the partner I was supposed to be interviewing with was subbed out for 2 associates (huh?). Sat down with two waifish women associates who started in with “Well we assume you know the particulars of the job from the posting…” Based on interview 17… I told them I would rather if we could quickly run through the particulars of the job and who I would specifically be working with (see… I am learning).

Boom. Document review. Temp project. The smile on my face drooped noticeably and at a certain point they noticed I was no longer apparently being nearly as attentive or perky. I appoligized and said “I’m sorry… I applied 2 weeks ago to this firm for an associate position. I assumed this interview was for that position.” No.. no it was not. They asked if I was still interested in the doc review. They dangled the hilarious trope of ‘maybe we might hire you if just possibly we like you’ which then spun to asking if I could work from home. (how would anyone ‘get to like you’ working from home I wonder…) The blonde of the duo then asked me 3 successive times if while doing reviews if I understood what I was reading. Apparently they had problems with people actually not understanding those squiggly lines on the page. Forget that I had more than twice the credentials of the 2 associates in front of me combined; they wanted to know if ‘I done read good.’

What little charm I have evaporated. I spoke frankly about document review and what a blemish it is on one’s resume. I told them I was actively seeking a real attorney position and expected I would have a job very shortly. I reiterated that I had applied twice to this firm and the last application was 2 weeks prior for a real position, which this was not. The blonde swung back around and wanted to know how much experience I had with Relativity. She really didn’t quite get it. I finished out the interview even though I should have walked out.

It’s a shame. The firm was in a beautiful building and had a very nice office. It had potential. It just turned out they were the standard douchbags that populate most of the legal field. Bait-n-switch job postings… nice.

minor update: I figured that since it could have been an error, I would contact the firm and make sure I wasn’t missing out on a real opportunity. I initially contacted the admin who setup the interview. No response. So after a few days, I reached out to the partner I was supposed to interview with… Radio silence. So apparently their M.O. actually was to try to pull in applicants with legit sounding job postings and then offer document review crap and hope it all worked out for them.